白水北美枫文集

北美枫文集

白水

???TORONTO

?????543?

?????2006-10-02

???Dancing, Swimming, Writing, Reading

?????

?????月光泉

查找白水发表的所有帖子

冷雨2011-10-06 02:16:37

问好临屏！
我想看到的就是古韵袅袅，其他的对我并不重要。

冷雨2010-12-24 06:15:09

问候白水，圣诞节快乐！！
清源留字

飞翔2010-10-23 18:06:10

问好! thanks byebye byebye byebye

亿七维2010-05-29 13:43:04

问好白水！

李盈枝2009-12-17 01:10:58

过来拜读先生的新诗佳作，希望能从中汲取营养，以提高自己旧体诗词的习作水平。顺便向先生问好并致意。

君山楚女2009-11-22 15:55:12

问候白水忘年兄。读您的作品，主我眼前一亮，慧心灵动。一篇好作品，一个好老师，确实能点破愚顽。

梦之2009-08-19 14:44:54

向姐姐问好！很欣赏你的作品。

梦之

zmj1662009-08-17 02:34:36

问好白水！

万春来2009-06-13 16:49:42

问候白水兄，前来问候！

莹雪2009-06-07 16:35:14

问好姐姐 thanks

西方文学　Western Literature

Lake ?2007-01-14 21:15:44??

果真一版比一版好。反复推敲，译文的质量肯定会高。

觉得还有两处，犯琢磨。

引用:

across this page, the light has changed
翻过此页, 光在变

"I offer"

'across this page' 不是"翻过此页"的意思, 而是光照在这页上已经变了。

引用:

the way thought thins before it finds its form.
思维于成形前淡泊

'thought thins' 是“薄”非 "泊", 还没想出一个好的译法。

不过，诗歌可有多种解析，以上只是个人看法。

_________________

Lake北美枫文集

白水 ?2007-01-14 21:26:08??

Lake 写到:

果真一版比一版好。反复推敲，译文的质量肯定会高。

觉得还有两处，犯琢磨。

引用:

across this page, the light has changed
翻过此页, 光在变

"I offer"

'across this page' 不是"翻过此页"的意思, 而是光照在这页上已经变了。

引用:

the way thought thins before it finds its form.
思维于成形前淡泊

'thought thins' 是“薄”非 "泊", 还没想出一个好的译法。

不过，诗歌可有多种解析，以上只是个人看法。

谢谢LAKE, 我会再想想.

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白水北美枫文集

maybe ?2007-01-14 22:04:59?? 不同看法

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maybe北美枫文集

kino ?2007-01-15 01:11:47??

加了精华。愿更多人来参与讨论，译诗可谓仁者见仁，智者见智。集思广益，则更能雕出精品。网络给了我们这个空间，使我们不再闭门造车。感谢北美枫，感谢岛主。在大陆的各种社区，鲜见如此勤奋，如此谦恭的一群人，这是诗歌的幸事，汉语的幸事阿。另外，建议，能不能翻译一些汉语的诗歌介绍给英语世界，这同样是一件很有意义的事情。 Very Happy

另：白水兄过谦了，而且误会了我的意思。我的意思是请你写点评论本诗的文字。 Smile

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kino北美枫文集

白水 ?2007-01-15 10:48:08??

谢谢各位朋友的热情帮助. 你们何时有机会来TORONTO, 白水一定设宴拜师.
熟悉我的诗友都知道我不会说话, 所以最怕长篇点评. 今领斑竹圣旨, 不得已而尊命行之, 只好将翻译思路呈与大家, 权当试验室的一只小白鼠吧.以便解剖, 探讨.

初译此诗, 我注重了两点. 一条主线: 变. 一个诗眼: WORD.
由于WORD含意多: 语言, 诺言, 命令, 传闻, 单词, 口角……每一个词义会引出不同的理解和译文. 初译后读了小枪的译文, 特别是和另一诗友交谈, 他一句话提醒了我: 这是一首很空灵的诗, 可延续为时间, 生命和一切事物的不确定性.于是我最终选择了 “话”__ 这个语言, 诺言, 命令, 传闻, 单词, 口角的最简单载体, 有了以下追求 “空灵, 变换” 的翻译思路:

晨星

诗/ ELIZABETH BACHINSKY 译/白水

When every thing is still
当万籟俱寂 –------------用一个"当" 字让诗歌启始就有变换. 从日间的喧闹, 渐变到晨星将隐的寂静时分

and the words we have
我们的话 ----------------我们拥有的语言

have changed before they’re wrought, I offer:
未及修饰已变幻, 我幡然:-- 未及:在之前;
修饰:WROUGHT有加工, 成型, 精心做成……等多种词义. 而成型始于加工,又能体现事物瞬间万变. "话"的加工就选"修饰"了;
幡然: 挑起旗, 示与人看. 符合OFFER所含提供, 献祭, 出现等词义. 又引出"翻然悔悟"成语, 暗和后句的 “悟”

the way thought thins before it finds its form.
思维于成形前淡泊--------成形: 找到FORM.
而THINS意为变稀薄, 细, 瘦, 淡,,,,,,思维变稀薄, 变淡, 所以用淡泊增加思绪的流动感

From this, take this: that dreams have substance,
由此悟得: 梦的涵 -------悟得: 由悟而得, 使诗歌有空灵感并与前句相承;
涵: 内涵, 实质

mutate moment as sunlight slips her noose
瞬息万变犹如阳光滑过她的套索----mutate moment字对字译为变换瞬间. 但结合后续SUNLIGHT 每刻都不同的滑动, 结合from noon to night so that, even now时间的变换, 我选用了 “瞬息万变”把瞬间连动起来

from noon to night so that, even now,
从下午到夜晚, 即便此刻

across this page, the light has changed
翻过此页, 光在变---------- 翻过此页: 从头至尾读了，就翻过去吧(翻译似应译意群)

and so changes everything.
物也在变------------------光在变/物也在变: 直译, 直接切入 “变” 的主线.
而这 “变” 恰好是世间万物的相对永恒的定义. 就象那相对永恒的晨星. 这就是我对此诗歌主体的理解.(其实就这颗星每个人还可产生很多不同的联想 Wink

)

严格说来, 今天我犯了自己的大忌. 所以极有可能词不达意. 在我心中, 诗歌是不可以逐句解释的, 要悟. 一首好诗, 虽有一条主线, 却能悟出多种不同的意境. 更何况我们不是原作者, 如此这般真怕诗人要为我的解释不能达她本意而伤心. 万一真是如此, 还盼STEVE和PEACE 帮我SAY SORRY, 下不为例.

附原诗及译文:

MORNING STAR

BY ELIZABETH BACHINSKY

When every thing is still
and the words we have
have changed before they’re wrought, I offer:

the way thought thins before it finds its form.

From this, take this: that dreams have substance,
mutate moment as sunlight slips her noose
from noon to night so that, even now,

across this page, the light has changed
and so changes everything.

晨星

诗/ ELIZABETH BACHINSKY 译/白水

当万籟俱寂
我们的话
未及修饰已变幻, 我幡然:

思维于成形前淡泊

由此悟得: 梦的涵
瞬息万变犹如阳光滑过她的套索
从下午到夜晚, 即便此刻

翻过此页, 光在变
物也在变

再次感谢各位朋友赐教, 从你们那学到不少东西. 涵括诗歌内外. 还盼朋友们多交流.

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白水北美枫文集

maybe ?2007-01-15 20:15:42??

白水写到:

"这是一首很空灵的诗, 可延续为时间, 生命和一切事物的不确定性."???
如果是这样，这诗不必写。morning star 也无意义。当字你解释得很好，（为了强调，上面我还加了个‘时’）
直言了,我觉得你没读通, 甚至恰巧读反了,拿我的注问原作者吧. （不确定的是表象，梦有实质。）

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maybe北美枫文集

白水 ?2007-01-15 20:35:19??

maybe 写到:

MAYBE YOU ARE RIGHT. THAT IS A GOOD IDEA.PEACE, COULD YOU HELP US TO ASK ELIZABETH. I THINK IT IS MOOR HELPFUL.

MAYBE, 佩服你对诗歌翻译的认真和执着. 探讨, 在你的心目中梦的实质是什么呢?那些句子你认为你和我的是相悖的呢? 请具体一点。

其实我对MORNING STAR 也想了很多, 但不想写了. 每个人有不同的理解吧. 别说把英文翻成中文, 记得我有一次写了首中文诗歌, 回帖人的理解完全和我的写作动议风马牛不相及, 还发短讯说如何喜欢我的那首诗歌.让我哭笑不得. 过了几天我自己读自己的诗歌竟读出了回帖人理解的意境, 忍不住哈哈大笑一通 Very Happy

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白水北美枫文集

Elizabeth Bachinsky ?2007-01-18 11:07:03??

Hello! I am the author of Morning Star. Thank you so much for offering to translate my poem. If you would like to ask me any questions about Morning Star, please email me at my home at ebachinsky@shaw.ca and I will try to help as much as I can. Take care and thank you! Elizabeth

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Elizabeth Bachinsky北美枫文集

hepingdao ?2007-01-18 19:46:45?? Re: 不同看法

maybe 写到:

MORNING STAR

BY ELIZABETH BACHINSKY

When every thing is still
and the words we have
have changed before they’re wrought, I offer:

the way thought thins before it finds its form.

From this, take this: that dreams have substance,
mutate moment as sunlight slips her noose
from noon to night so that, even now,

across this page, the light has changed
and so changes everything.

读了各位,还有不同看法,希望没有过读。不是翻译,而在解释我的理解以交流, 请原译者自斟酌.

当一切静止时
而我们所拥有的话语
在被成形前已经改变意义，我提出一个想法
（2 have’s, and 1st is not had, and ‘every thing is still’, imply words do not really change, meanings changed）

Comments: your understanding is correct, but when you translate these sentences into Chinese, the translations need to follow Chinese idiomatic usages. No one will say in Chinese:
我们的话语在被成形前已经改变意义, I believe it is better to say something like:
我们的话未及修饰已变幻

思想是如何地在找到衣服前消瘦。
(我在此即兴取一个可以说明意义的比喻，不算贴近原文翻译.'淡泊'会不会差太远?)
Comments: There is not such thing as 思想的衣服
but in Chinese, it makes more sense to say 思维转淡泊，which maps well to the English sentence: thought thins

由此，取记：梦有实质，
梦形变事物的感官外征如太阳光解了她的套索
自正午到夜晚，即便此刻。
(slips her noose, slip a knot, same usage, To release, loose, or unfasten: I think；又 moment in philosophy takes the meaning "an aspect of a thing." ‘Mutate’ here is different from ‘change’.)

This is a bit difficult to translate, we should disassemble and rephrase this sentence to make it clearer:

dreams mutate at the moment as sunlight slips her noose

here sunlight slips her noose:

from my understanding, this sentence means: the sun is rising,
going through the dark clouds or the black evening at dawn,

扫过这页，光业已改变
一切亦如是
（不是'翻'过，眼从页首倒页尾,另,光也不会翻页）

如何切题? 晨星（与幕星是同一颗星，时间，光县呗，实质是同一个）

Hi Elizabeth,

Welcome on board to Maple Review!

Here I put some comments on some parts of comments from one of the translators: maybe,

You might talk a little bit about the settings you wrote this poem, and explain what the exact meaning of the sentence:

that dreams have substance,
mutate moment as sunlight slips her noose

especially "her noose", an image that is very unique.

And check to see if I have understood correctly

Thanks

Best,
hepingdao

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hepingdao北美枫文集

hepingdao ?2007-01-18 19:53:26??

Elizabeth Bachinsky 写到:

Welcome again,

here is a welcome message from one of our Moderators: Mr. khoko:

http://oson.ca/viewtopic.php?t=2080

wish your IE could decode simplied Chinese characters correctly, in that case, you will try to guess what these character blocks mean exactly:)

Steve is pretty good at reading and even writing Chinese:)

Anyway, enjoy your experience in this China Town, and we are trying hard to set up a bridge between the east and west, for you to walk through:)

Thanks

hepingdao

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